The meeting transcript below was from the audio recording of the meeting with the following people, Simon Ford, Jennifer Ford, Dan Lawty, Richard Schober, Wen Clement and one other. The meeting is referred to in the initial portion of the write up by Jennifer Ford.
Meeting transcription April 14, 2023
Participants:
- Simon Ford (SF)
- Jennifer Ford (JF)
- Dan Lawty (DL)
- Sean Apodaca (SA)
- Richard Schober (RS)
- Wen Clampett (WC)
Recording initiated by SF in vehicle prior to arrival at WC’s apartment where the meeting was conducted. DL brought a loaf of bread and WC offered water. Participants exchanged greetings and DL moved a quilt rack to create more space where the chairs were set up. Transcription begins at 4:10 on the audio recording when the participants were seated.
RS: Well, before we start, I’d like to share something, okay?
DL: Would it be okay to pray?
RS: I was hoping you’d do that.
DL: And you can share in it, too. I thought of praying, but, anybody else, too.
SF: Sure,
DL: Our heavenly father, we understand our neediness. Of thy spirit and thy love. And, moment by moment, day by day, we’re thankful for the spirit and love that you have made clear to us. And so, we trust that in our time together. We love the call of the gospel, and we love your correction and your guidance and your light to our pathway. We pray that that spirit and thy unity could continue amongst us, and thy will be done, we ask in Jesus’ name.
JF: Our father, we pray that we would understand that when we seek to be like Christ that we want your heart and your mind, and we want your voice and we pray that when we speak, it wouldn’t be with our own voice, but that we would long for your voice to be what is heard and we just pray that we could be careful and pray that we could be wise; pray that we could have the spirit that Christ brought to us, we pray in Jesus’ name.
DL: Amen
WC: Our father, we’re so thankful that we see Calvary day by day and we understand that as we come before thee, our problems are so little. Help us, we pray to truly love our elder brother as he loved you and you loved him, I ask in Jesus’ name.
DL: Amen
RS: Our father, we’re grateful for this opportunity to share with our brethren, and may it be done in a true spirit of, thy spirit, and be guided by thy holy spirit and that our purpose today might be that we could be found closer together and we could meet in harmony and without fear, without condemnation, and we pray now that thou would be with us that this may be accomplished. Amen.
DL: Amen
SF: Our father, we’re, we’re very aware that there’s no greater privilege that we could ever hope for than to be conformed to the image of Jesus, and we’re thankful for his example, for his teaching, for his purity and his beauty, and we long to have a spirit like His. We long to have a love for truth and a humility and wisdom about us. We just pray that your spirit would just overshadow us, come within us and help us to speak truth in love and that we could learn to walk in your ways and, and work towards becoming conformed to that image, and we know that we’re a long way from it, but that’s the desire of our heart and we just pray for your help, in Jesus’ name.
DL: Amen
SA: Father, we, we don’t know one another’s hearts, but we know that you do. So, we pray that you would make it very clear where we should go from here, that we could be comforted; that we could be at peace and at rest, with your will and help us to be willing for whatever your answer is, we ask it in Jesus’ name.
DL, SF: Amen
(prayers concluded 8:42)
JF: Richard, I don’t know if Dan let you know or not, but I texted him a while back, long…a few days, not long before, but days before we found out about Dean and Mark. I texted Dan and asked if we, if we could, if we could talk again. Um, so, this has really nothing to do with all the other stuff that’s happening right now, um, but I had asked Dan, um, if we could talk again, and I am super-uncomfortable with these kinds of conversations—with having to, to speak up, and to say things, um, so, I’d like to just tell you why I came to Dan, tell you what’s bothering me, and um, if I can, just, like, say everything and then we can…I know you’ll have some questions and we can discuss it afterwards, but I think that might help my nerves a little bit, (laughs)
RS, DL: Indistinguishable acknowledgement
JF: Um, um, I wrote it down, just, um…my my understanding from when we met together last fall, um, I think it was really clear that you understood that we were…we had some concerns—we were uncomfortable. You also know that my daughters were uncomfortable and that they were gonna meet with Dan. Um, my understanding at that point, was that us being in the same meeting was a trial period, and if we felt uncomfortable, that we didn’t have to continue with that, and my understanding also was, well, what you said, was that you came to meeting—because we hadn’t been in that meeting, yet, that you came to meeting, and then you left right after, and you weren’t going to initiate contact with the kids, and, and that you left right after gospel meeting, um, so with those conditions, I felt comfortable. Um, so then, since then, there’s a number of things that have happened, and initially, kind of as the things happened, I was growing more and more uncomfortable, but the first thing that happened was in November. I don’t know if you remember, but I went to one meeting, and then I was gone for two weeks on a trip, and then when I came back, um, you called me about my children passing the emblems in meeting…and asked me about the boys passing the emblems in meeting, and I said, “Richard, I wasn’t there. I don’t know. I don’t know what you’re talking about. I wasn’t there.” Um, and you went on to describe more, um, but when I hung up, I, it bothered me because I thought, ‘Why are you watching my kids in meeting?’ So, just kind of bothered me, um, but, like, ‘Let it go. Not a big thing.’ Um, then you called me on numerous times to visit, you called to check in and see how I was doing, which, which, uh, again, ‘I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt.’ But it did make me uncomfortable and, um, you shared some poetry, um, you called to see how I was, you called to tell me about your prison experience and some of the training you had, um uncomfortable, but, ‘Not a big deal.’ But then as things kind of kept going, um, it bothered me when you called me about Naomi’s health and you told me that you and Linda had discussed Naomi’s health, um, and you were telling me about the clinic, um, and just the interest in my kids, it’s just been a red flag. Then, um, it has bothered everybody—well, my family, all of my family, um, just recently when you’ve been attempting to correct everybody about the length of our testimony. Um, that’s…it’s…it’s not inappropriate to receive correction about our testimony length, but that would be one of the workers or one of the elders, and so it felt inappropriate, um, and in the past couple weeks, there’s been numerous times where you have initiated contact with my children, and those felt more specifically…direct…direct violation from what you said you would do, as far as not initiating contact. You contacted—you asked Jarett and Naomi out to dinner, and they were both very, um, startled by that. Um, you followed Naomi and Noah and Jarrett out to the car after gospel meeting, and Naomi felt like you were…you had walked past the workers and were waiting there, and she felt like you were waiting for them and then you followed them to the car. They were very uncomfortable with that. Um, you helped Bethany brush the snow off her car, and were communicating with her. She was uncomfortable with that. And then, um, a number of times, shaked hands…shook hands after meeting and we were under the understanding that that wasn’t going to happen…that you were just gonna leave after meeting, and not initiate contact. And then, multiple times, after gospel meeting, our family is very aware of where you’re at, and, and trying to make sure everything’s being…that everybody is safe. Um, so, we noticed a pattern that you walk past the workers and then you hang around and wait by the car, and…maybe that’s because you’re giving Wen a ride, but it’s made…it’s made us uncomfortable. And a number of those behaviors, they would seem innocent and normal, but they are also grooming behaviors and someone that’s ignorant and uneducated wouldn’t necessarily recognize the difference, and that’s why children are taken advantage of the way they are, is because a lot of times, people that take advantage of children…of children, have the ability to seem innocent and…to…to… not seem like anything amiss is happening. And the parents aren’t aware of what’s happening, because there’s these subtle things that happen that you feel uncomfortable about, but you don’t…you can’t put your finger on quite what it is. Um, so, that stuff is happening. Um, there’s a pattern and a habit of pushing the boundaries, um, where you are right now, it seems like it’s way—way beyond where Julie Raab initially set that boundary. And, so I am to the point where I am no longer comfortable being in meeting with you. My girls are no longer comfortable being in meeting with you. Um, Noah has also expressed, ‘Like, I’m not comfortable.’ So, my understanding was this was a trial period, conditional on us being comfortable, and we’re not comfortable.
RS: I appreciate you sharing that. My heart goes out to you and your family for any feelings I have created in them and, um, I’m shocked—I’m appalled. Um, um, um, Let me…let me…let me start with this first, I want to share this—this is vital to everything that’s going to take place from here on in. There’s a man that does seminars. He travels around the world and you have to pay at least a thousand dollars—two thousand dollars—to attend one of his seminars and here’s the message that he gives every time. He says, you know before you make a decision about anything, he says, think about how you’re gonna feel about that decision five minutes from now, an hour from now, a week from now, next month, next year, five years from now. That applies, and he was talking about natural success in life. But, I wanna take it a step further. It has everything to do with the decisions that we make, spiritually, should be considered, and if we do that, we…we…we wouldn’t be sittin’ here today.
SF: Yeah, we would.
RS: You think so?
SF: Yes, sir. I have children to protect.
RS: Okay.
SF: And they have an eternal soul that I have a responsibility for. So, that’s why we’re here, Richard.
JF: My children are saying, “I’m uncomfortable.”
SF: That’s why we’re here.
RS: Okay, so you…
WC: Excuse—excuse me! I believe when the meeting was put at the Block’s, there was an agreement that no children would be in that meeting. Am I wrong on that? (directed to DL)
DL: I…I don’t know the arrangement.
JF: That is correct…yes, that is correct. That was the agreement originally.
SF: Originally, yeah.
JF: Julie called everybody in the field, and we had just moved up, so Julie did call me directly…
DL: Okay, okay.
JF: Yeah, that’s correct.
RS: So, so, it’s a good thing. We can always look back, we can look back on decisions, things that we do, our actions, and when we have a situation, the first thing—the very first thing we need to do (pointing finger at JF) we need to look at what part we played in it, and go from there, forward.
JF: We had an agreement, and the agreement was conditional upon us being comfortable, and we all were in that room, and, and we were willing—we were willing—to, to give it a chance.
RS: So, let me ask this question to both of you: Have I molested any of your children?
JF: It’s not about molesting…we’re not going to wait that long.
SF: I’m not gonna wait.
JF: We were willing…we were willing to…to give it a chance.
RS: Is it, number two…Have I ever touched any of your children inappropriately?
JF: You agreed to not initiate contact…
RS: I did not say that…I said…I…I promised you—in tears, that I would not touch your children inappropriately. I have not done that. If shaking hands with your children is inappropriate…
JF: We’re not gonna wait for that.
RS: …then excuse me.
JF: Richard, when you commit certain crimes, at that point, you aren’t trusted and you have to be willing for a different set of boundaries than the average person.
RS: Okay. Let’s just take a minute here, now. Look back, forty years—to your behavior? Your behavior—is there something back there?
JF: I have never molested a child. I have never molested a child.
RS: Maybe you didn’t. But look back…
JF: Richard, that’s not what we’re talking about right now.
RS: …forty years…that’s forty years ago! And you do not believe that God has healed me and taken care of…
JF: That is not true!
SF: That is not true! We’re talking about what you said you would do, and what you’re doing.
RS: I said I would not touch them inappropriately. I have not done that. I’ve not done that.
SF: You said you were gonna leave right after meeting, you wouldn’t initiate contact with the kids—but you are slowly pushing those boundaries, which is what groomers do—That’s what child molesters do, Richard…is they take boundaries and they establish trust, they push until there’s resistance, then they back off, and then they push, til there’s resistance and they back off… it’s not my feelings—you keep talking about feelings. This is empirical facts. You were told you could come to gospel meetings…
WC: Hold it!
SF: Yes, ma’am.
WC: Where is forgiveness?
SF: This has nothing to do with forgiveness…this has to do with establishing trust!
WC: …and love…
JF: We love the souls of our children!
WC: …for our brother? Our love for a brother.
SF: Then you don’t put temptation in front of him if he’s…if he’s struggling.
WC: …who God has forgiven. Where is the forgiveness?
JF: Then he needs to fit into the boundaries.
WC: When…
SF: Wen, I’ve…there’s….there’s…forgiving somebody, and then trusting their behavior in the future are completely different things. You can forgive a person—I have no—I wanna see Richard saved. I want to see him prosper. I want to see him in the kingdom…that doesn’t mean that I, based off the behaviors that I see with my own eyes, that I necessarily am going to trust him to babysit my children…it’s a different thing.
RS: Okay, let’s just end this right here on this note. If you folks are so concerned about my presence in the meetings, let me share you…with you… what happened on Sunday afternoon…
JF: Richard, we’re not the only ones. We’re not the only ones that are super concerned about you being in a meeting with children.
RS: (to DL while JF was speaking) oh..what, Dan? Have you heard anything?
DL: I have…I have…I have.
RS: What?
JF: Yes, there are multiple people that saw that we were on the list to be in meeting with you that are…that are very concerned.
RS: Okay, so you’ve prayed about this, right?
JF: Absolutely!
SF: Yes!
RS: Okay, so…
JF: We prayed about it before we met with you the first time…the very first time.
RS: Okay
SF: And many times since.
RS: …so, when you have, when you have a problem, and you pray about it, and you have, I don’t doubt that…so, when you have a problem and you pray about it, you should come up with a solution, so what is your solution? What do you want from me?
JF: I have a solution. I am not willing to be in meeting with you anymore.
RS: Okay. Dan, that’s on you now.
DL: It is. And, and I’m ready to ask if you’d be willing to listen in to meetings.
RS: Listen in to meetings?
DL: Yeah. And not…
RS: No!
DL: …not come in person.
RS: I have been outcast. I’ve been cut off. I’ve been kicked out of meeting…
DL: And this is not outcast from God.
RS: I know that…
DL: It’s a protection, it’s a protection for you and it’s a protection from our young ones.
RS: Well…
DL: And, and that’s what I would appreciate you being willing to do.
RS: And not share in the emblems? Not be a part of that…
DL: That’s right.
RS: …not be in the presence of God?
DL: You’re in the presence of God.
RS: I don’t think so. No.
SF: He’s not far from any one of us.
DL: Yeah, He’s very aware, and it’s for your future protection and our future protection.
WC: Well!
DL: That’s what I feel would be…would be…
RS: Have you shared…
DL: …would be peace to you and peace to the kingdom.
RS: Okay. Have you shared with them what I told you the other night when you called me about this?
DL: Uh, what specifically do you mean?
RS: That no more did I want to meet with those folks, no more did I want to be a part of the faith, I did not want ever to go to another meeting…did you share that with them?
DL: I did not.
RS: And why not, Dan?
DL: Because I felt like that was a moment of anger and rage because they wanted to visit with you and I wasn’t buying that yet. I wanted…
JF: It’s not appropriate to put Dan in that situation, either. That’s unfair…
RS: And who’s putting…who’s putting who in a situation? You brought it to him.
JF: This is why we’re meeting all together.
RS: You put him in that situation, Jennifer.
JF: No. I don’t expect him to go tell you everything I tell him
SF: And we’re all here with witnesses so that it would be clear what’s shared and what isn’t.
JF: It wouldn’t be appropriate for him to share with us the things that you said in confidence. I asked him if we could meet together.
RS: Okay, okay let’s go, let’s go to the bible, let’s go to the bible, ok? What is the word of God and it’s the word of God, says if you if you have a problem with a brother, what are you supposed to do?
JF: Richard, we met with you already in the fall
RS: Okay, and you, and you didn’t express any concern about this about this concern and you went to Dan.
JF: I expressed great concern about it and I told you we would meet again if I was uncomfortable
RS: And you didn’t come to me
JF: So I asked Dan if we could meet again.
RS: You’re guilty! (pointing finger at JF)
JF: You’re not my judge and jury. I’m sorry, you’re not to point a finger at me and call me guilty.
RS: Well
DL: Can I, can I read something I was thinking about today? And it has to do with me. Is that is that
WC: Please! Please, we need
DL: It was a situation that probably isn’t exactly
WC: the same?
DL: Couldn’t, couldn’t fit just where we’re at in a sense, but it’s our responsibility just as brothers and sisters in wanting to be in Christ and what we’re given
JF: Calm down (Whispered to SF, audible respiration’s and rapid heart rate)
SF: I’m sorry (Whispered to JF, smiled at JF)
DL: To have in our hearts.
RS: What’s funny folks? What’s, what’s funny here, Simon?
JF: He’s, he’s
SF: She’s having me calm down because I’m getting upset.
JF: I can hear his breathing. He’s been having high blood pressure, and I can hear
SF: I don’t like it when people attack my wife—at all!
JF: What happens when he gets high blood pressure. I’m hoping that
RS: That’s not funny.
JF: No, it’s not funny. He just, I calmed him.
SF: I smiled at my wife because I love her.
RS: Okay.
DL: So, it’s just, when Paul had written to the Corinthians about the issues in the church, and some of them were sexual immorality, some were, um financial, you know, and law situations that, that he was wanting to guide and be a help to, but he just spoke of himself in that part, (read from II Cor 6:1-12) and then he…he finishes that as far as his outpouring to them and wanting to be pure and, and representing what our calling is.
WC: I, I have a question.
DL: Sure.
WC: For Jennifer. Do you, ma’am, have some something against me?
JF: No, not at all.
WC: Are you comfortable with me in the meeting? (voice breaking)
JF: Yes.
WC: What about you, Simon?
SF: Yeah.
WC: Do you know how I get to that meeting? (voice breaking)
JF: A vehicle.
WC: Whose vehicle?
JF: Wen, this doesn’t have anything to do with it.
SF: This is an emotional side-track thing. We’ll come pick you up and take you to meeting, Wen.
JF: There are lots of people that would bring you to meeting.
SF: There is no shortage of people that would be willing, I’d, I’m not saying that Richard has no value or is not a nice man, I’m just saying I want separation right now.
JF: As a mother, when my children, when multiple of my children, come to me and say they’re uncomfortable with someone, that is my responsibility to take care of that. I’m not going to sit passively by when my children are telling me, “I’m not comfortable.”
RS: Let’s go back to
JF: Especially when I’m already not comfortable.
RS: Stop! (pointing finger at JF) Let’s go back to that.
JF: Richard, you don’t have authority over me.
SF: You can’t tell people to stop talking.
WC: Whooo
RS: What about you? Wait a minute
JF: You’re telling me to stop and you’re telling me I’m guilty. You are, You are being an aggressor. That it, that’s overboard.
RS: Excuse me, I’m sorry, I apologize. I’m really sorry that you feel that way.
SF: We’ll listen to you without interruption, we just ask for the same courtesy.
SA: (Stands up, hold up right hand toward RS) I just feel that this situation is far bigger than the, the Fords. And so, I understand that is, (to SF and JF) I, I’m sorry that you have been, in a sense, dragged into this situation, but
DL: And I am sorry for my part in that, too. (to SF and JF)
SA: But this, I mean, but this is a, Richard and Wen, this is a far bigger situation than
JF: And we were willing to try, we honestly were. (to DL)
DL: Yeah.
JF: And up until the last week-and-a-half, really, after we talked to you guys, I didn’t realize that there were other people upset about this, either.
SA: They have a right to not be in a meeting, for whatever reason, now that’s between them and God, you know, about forgiveness and all that, but, but, that’s really a separate issue, I, I sense. I mean it’s part of it, but it’s, its’s, there’s a lot more.
RS: Okay, folks, let me, let me. Can I finish what I want to say?
SF: Sure.
RS: And it’s about me. I’m the one on the cross here. Sunday afternoon, Sunday evening, after that meeting, and I have, and I got hopefully Dan and Sean, will vouch for me on this, that I have always left. I have not included myself in your little circle of hugging and shaking hands with everybody. I exit. Always exit, right after meeting. Is that not true, Dan?
DL: That’s, that’s what I see.
SF: Did you come back into the breezeway after you, you went out to your car?
RS: I did. I was waiting for someone to give something to me. And you know what I saw when I came back in?
SF: My daughter?
RS: I saw Levi. I saw Levi out on the step. I saw Hannah out in the snow, playing in the snow. I did not see either one of you and if I had children
JF: We are not the ones being called into correction right now.
RS: Don’t you interrupt me. Don’t you interrupt me!
SF: (to JF) Oh, that’s…
JF: (to SF) Just let it be.
RS: Okay, the thing was, if I would have had children then if I had such strong feelings about a child molester
JF: (softly) You did have children, Richard.
RS: in the meeting, they would have been by my side, so there would not ever have been a chance that he would even get close. I have, I walk, I have walked by and I have raised
JF: (to DL) Dan, can we be done, please? Dan, can we please be done? I can’t, can we be done?
SF: (audible elevated heartbeat heard)
DL: Sure.
JF: (to DL) I’m not going to have my parenting be called into question. I’m sorry.
SF: Richard, you literally molested your children, and you’re telling us we’re not good parents?
JF: Hannah innocently ran out to pick me a dandelion and you are chastising me. Yes, and we all have been
SF: You went to prison for molesting your children and you’re telling us that you would have protected them? Really?
JF: (to DL) Dan can we just be done? Can we be done please?
RS: (to SF) Yes. Please leave. Please leave. You’re accusing me of
SF: Of something that’s been proven beyond a reasonable doubt!
JF: (to SF, while SF was speaking) Simon, let’s be done. Simon, let’s just be done.
RS: And I have served my time. Do you know how long I’ve served?
SF: Yeah, you told me.
JF: Okay, well, we’re uncomfortable with you and, we’re uncomfortable.
RS: And you have forgot, have you not, and you have forgot that God has forgiven me, healed me, (indistinguishable)
JF: (to DL) I’m sorry, I’m sorry.
SF: (to DL) I, I, I know, I’m being emotional, I’m sorry.
RS: And I hope you can leave now, please.
WC: (to RS) Come on, Rich. Settle down.
RS: (to WC) I know.
SF: (to JF) Let’s go.
JF: (to DL) We don’t fault you. We don’t fault you. We don’t fault you.
SA: This, This is far bigger than, than you.
DL: (to SF and JF) Yeah, We’ll follow up
JF: (to DL) Yeah. (to SA) We don’t fault you.
SF: (to DL) and I didn’t do a good job of doing what I came here to do, I’m sorry. I’m sorry.
RS: Never mind, I’m sorry that you folks feel the way you do.
SF: (to RS) Me too. Me too.
RS: I’m sorry, I’m sorry (voice breaking)
SF: (upon hearing RS beginning to sob in the apartment) Here come the tears
(rustling noises as SF and JF exit the apartment)
JF: (to SF) I’m sorry, Simon. I can’t keep sitting there, hearing accusations thrown at me.
****************************End of Recording***********************************
And here is the audio recording of the transcript above.